In 2 Kings 5:17 we read of Naaman, the Aramean com..

The Man Who Took Sand/Earth from Israel

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In 2 Kings 5:17 we read of Naaman, the Aramean commander who was healed of leprosy by Elisha. After his healing, he declared that he would no longer worship any god but YHWH, but since he was returning to Aram, he asked:

“If you will not, please let your servant be given two mule-loads of earth; for your servant will no longer offer burnt offering or sacrifice to other gods, but to the LORD.”

As I understand the verse, Naaman believed that YHWH could only be properly worshiped on Israelite soil, so he wanted to take some earth back to stand on/towards when he prayed (two mule-loads isn't a lot).

Why is that? Was the understanding at that point in time that YHWH was a regional god as we see the gods of other nations were believed to be regional?

There is an echo of a similar thought when David is driven from the Land of YHWH in 1 Samuel 26:19. When Saul was hunting David, David laments:

“They have driven me out this day from sharing in the inheritance of the LORD, saying, ‘Go, serve other gods.’”

Why did David believe that he had to serve other gods if YHWH was understood at that point in time to be a universal god? David could have "taken" his religion/faith with him to any other country and still prayed to YHWH.

#universal #worship #david #naaman #gods

Comment

Yoḥanan (John) 4:23-24 TS2009
[23] “But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father also does seek such to worship Him. [24] “Elohim is Spirit, and those who worship Him need to worship in spirit and truth.”

https://bible.com/bible/316/jhn.4.23-24.TS2009

· Reply · 1756987430

2 Replies

never contemplated these two things in the way your questions are asking.
but, concerning naaman, the verse (of 2 kings 5) says

- 17“If you will not,” said Naaman, “please let me, your servant, be given as much soil as a pair of mules can carry. For your servant will never again make a burnt offering or a sacrifice to any other god but the LORD. -

the continuation seems to me to indicate the soil is for the offerings, and that is for the blood?
still no idea, just adding another thought to the mix.

· Reply · 1756988646

“Why did David believe that he had to serve other gods if YHWH was understood at that point in time to be a universal god? David could have "taken" his religion/faith with him to any other country and still prayed to YHWH.“

You already know what I’m gonna say 😉.
…David would not have understood YHWH to be a god because that would be a bad anachronism and the concept hadn’t even been made by the pagans yet from whom we took the term. Not to mention God and Gad sound exactly the same, the latter being a local idol at that time. Had David been thinking YHWH was God local or universal it would be taken as Gad reasonably so and he’d be executed appropriately for idolatry.

But to the local verses universal point the answer is in verse 15. As far as Naaman goes anyway. But David would have had a different view being a native worshiper of YHWH. YHWH says over and again how much He loves the Land of Israel. He loves His people Israel too but will kick them out and curse them if they don’t honor the Land.

He’s not bound to Land but in that time that’s where His worshipers were and the service of the mishkan which was located no where else in the world. In that day it didn’t matter if YHWH is everywhere because the only way to serve Him correctly as Torah tells us is through the service of the mishkan.

If the people of Israel thrust him out of Israel they are effectively sending him into the service of idols. Not that he would take up such service but anywhere else they would be serving such demonic forces.

Land is important to YHWH and should be to us. It is theories even that Land may have a kind of memory. As if the earth is a living being of a different sort than those of use who crawl about her surface. Science is constantly finding new types of mysterious creatures and various forms of life that are so unlike to our own especially in the ocean and now they know that plants and trees have a greater kind of life than we realized. Not quite on the level of animals but more than we believed before. Why not the Land itself aswell? It’s possible but not proven yet.

Scripture talks about the promise land with very poetic diction. Does it remember everything that happens there? Does it remember that YHWH set His very presence in that place on the mountain? Does the Land remember that the Name of YHWH resides there forever?

Land is more than we know but that doesn’t mean YHWH is local

“Why did David believe that he had to serve other gods if YHWH was understood at that point in time to be a universal god? David could have "taken" his religion/faith with him to any other country and still prayed to YHWH.“ 
 
You already know what I’m gonna say 😉. 
…David would not have understood YHWH to be a god because that would be a bad anachronism and the concept hadn’t even been made  by the pagans yet from whom we took the term. Not to mention God and Gad sound exactly the same, the latter being a local idol at that time. Had David been thinking YHWH was God local or universal it would be taken as Gad reasonably so and he’d be executed appropriately for idolatry. 
 
But to the local verses universal point the answer is in verse 15. As far as Naaman goes anyway. But David would have had a different view being a native worshiper of YHWH. YHWH says over and again how much He loves the Land of Israel. He loves His people Israel too but will kick them out and curse them if they don’t honor the Land.  
 
He’s not bound to Land but in that time that’s where His worshipers were and the service of the mishkan which was located no where else in the world. In that day it didn’t matter if YHWH is everywhere because the only way to serve Him correctly as Torah tells us is through the service of the mishkan.  
 
If the people of Israel thrust him out of Israel they are effectively sending him into the service of idols. Not that he would take up such service but anywhere else they would be serving such demonic forces.  
 
Land is important to YHWH and should be to us. It is theories even that Land may have a kind of memory. As if the earth is a living being of a different sort than those of use who crawl about her surface. Science is constantly finding new types of mysterious creatures and various forms of life that are so unlike to our own especially in the ocean and now they know that plants and trees have a greater kind of life than we realized. Not quite on the level of animals but more than we believed before. Why not the Land itself aswell? It’s possible but not proven yet. 
 
Scripture talks about the promise land with very poetic diction. Does it remember everything that happens there? Does it remember that YHWH set His very presence in that place on the mountain? Does the Land remember that the Name of YHWH resides there forever?  
 
Land is more than we know but that doesn’t mean YHWH is local

· Reply · 1757163631

4 Replies

cool, we're talking of the land now.
hooking into steve's (first) comment, i want to talk about the spiritual aspect.

and so let's talk about soul.
initially understood as a 'living being', when inanimate flesh is enlivened by the breathe of the Ruach.
basically our consciousness.
it is in this consciousness, our soul, that our spiritual being, or body, is grown, and comes to life.

now our soul also goes through a development, in fact, this is what the 'story' of the israelites is all about.
egypt, being called out of it, the wilderness, getting through it, israel, the conquering of canaan, and lastly jerusalem, different, just as john differs from the synoptics.
so, where am i going with this?
the first four sons of jacob reflect this too.
see, hear, attach, praise. - reuben, simeon, levi, judah.
and that third 'land' is attachment. levitical, indeed.

so david is bemoaning the fact that (physically) being kicked out of israel prevents him from attaching himself to YHWH (in soulspeak).
spiritually, therefore.
to echo naaman, he'd have to take some eretz with him...

this goes beyond the spiritual progress made in the first two developments of the soul.
where in egypt we gain knowledge of YHWH, and learn to fear Him, we see that.
and in the wilderness we learn to follow that counsel (the Commandments, or Law) He gave, and gain strength therefrom, we're listening.
because it is here, in the third development that is israel, that we start truly wising up, and understanding, attaching ourselves therefore.
israel is a state of mind.

just to complete things, this is where the israelites were partially veiled, the curtain still before the Holy place in jerusalem.
the wait took place, for the Lamb that is the Lion of Judah to come, and rend that veil through His sacrifice, to enable us to follow Him, rend the veil in ourselves, and live out our praise.
when the Spirit of YHWH comes to dwell in us...

cool, we're talking of the land now. 
hooking into steve's (first) comment, i want to talk about the spiritual aspect. 
 
and so let's talk about soul. 
initially understood as a 'living being', when inanimate flesh is enlivened by the breathe of the Ruach. 
basically our consciousness. 
it is in this consciousness, our soul, that our spiritual being, or body, is grown, and comes to life. 
 
now our soul also goes through a development, in fact, this is what the 'story' of the israelites is all about. 
egypt, being called out of it, the wilderness, getting through it, israel, the conquering of canaan, and lastly jerusalem, different, just as john differs from the synoptics. 
so, where am i going with this? 
the first four sons of jacob reflect this too. 
see, hear, attach, praise. - reuben, simeon, levi, judah. 
and that third 'land' is attachment. levitical, indeed. 
 
so david is bemoaning the fact that (physically) being kicked out of israel prevents him from attaching himself to YHWH (in soulspeak). 
spiritually, therefore. 
to echo naaman, he'd have to take some eretz with him... 
 
this goes beyond the spiritual progress made in the first two developments of the soul. 
where in egypt we gain knowledge of YHWH, and learn to fear Him, we see that. 
and in the wilderness we learn to follow that counsel (the Commandments, or Law) He gave, and gain strength therefrom, we're listening. 
because it is here, in the third development that is israel, that we start truly wising up, and understanding, attaching ourselves therefore. 
israel is a state of mind. 
 
just to complete things, this is where the israelites were partially veiled, the curtain still before the Holy place in jerusalem. 
the wait took place, for the Lamb that is the Lion of Judah to come, and rend that veil through His sacrifice, to enable us to follow Him, rend the veil in ourselves, and live out our praise. 
when the Spirit of YHWH comes to dwell in us...

· Reply · 1757238500

4 Replies

It is clear that he intends to make an altar according to God's law, "an altar of earth thou shalt make to me", which is allowed to uncircumcised believers to make altars of their own, while circumcised believers are only allowed to use altars specified by God for them in particular (for keeping which rule they were mocked by Rab-shakeh).

· Reply · 1757498512

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