"Why should I obey God when I didn't ask to be created?"
First, before talking about the logical fallacies of this, I would simply point out that it isn't a legitimate, natural, normal, or honest question; it's an illegitimate, unnatural, abnormal, fabricated question, of the sort meant to mock and confuse. It is a good question from a bully's viewpoint, because it is obviously wrong, and so basically wrong that it is usually difficult for someone to immediately and clearly explain how it is wrong.
"Tell me right now: what does the word 'and' mean? Too late; you obviously don't know what 'and' means, and shouldn't be using it in a sentence."
Bully's love to see people struggle to explain something they hold to without question - even though there is nothing strange about struggling to explain extremely basic concepts.
With this understood, to make things clearer about the question, we would ask where they took the phrasing of it from:
Where does "why should I (such and such) when I didn't agree to (so and so)" truly and logically apply?
Well, if a stranger knocked on your door, and told you to wash his dishes, you would rightly ask, "Why?"
You have no obligation to do it - there is of course an infinite number of things you don't have an obligation to do. But if you had agreed to do it, that would create the obligation to do it, based on the obligation you always have: the obligation to keep your word.
So all they've done is taken phrasing that applies to obligations you don't have, and applied them to obligations you do have. They might just as well have said, "If there is anything I don't have to do, then there is nothing I do have to do." They've rejected the idea of right and wrong, altogether and point-blank.
Yet they use phrasing which assumes an obligation they already have: did they agree to be obliged to do the things they agreed to? By using terms based in what they are rejecting, they confuse people: sounding like they argue from the same foundation while attacking that foundation.
No matter how many things there are which one is not obliged to do, it obviously does not lessen in any way the obligations they do have.
A more obvious case of a similar fallacy would be if a thief was found stealing and was told "that isn't yours", and he simply said "then it isn't yours either!". One doesn't really need to explain to the thief the fundamental concept of rightful possession; one could quite justifiably say nothing but "yes it is", and tie him up.
Perhaps this case as well would be more confusing if there was so much theft and stolen goods that rightful possession was the rare exception. Being required to do what you have no obligation to do is so common in every aspect of life these days, through the abundance of false doctrine and the ubiquitous industrial scale of tyranny, it explains somewhat why concepts of a person's basic fundamental obligations are so easily clouded and confused.
But of course one can't always talk to this great length when someone says: "Why should I obey God when I didn't ask to be created?"; what could briefly be said to it?
It would be different in different contexts, but one idea would be to say: "Not that it's possible," (to point out that it's based in fantasy) "but why would you need to obey God if you had asked to be created?" (to point out that the question itself assumes the existence of fundamental obligations).
One could also point out, "This would be treating God like some random stranger, another fellow created person, or like a false god which could be anything from a demon to a cow. But this is the Creator, who gave us the ability to live and think and act; we are obliged to him if there is such a thing as obligation at all."
But in any case, it is difficult on the spur of the moment to think of something concise. I heard one response, which, while it was an interesting point, didn't address the actual question - I wouldn't fault them too much for failing to do so.
2023/04/08 #sabbathposts
Thought for Today: Sunday April 09:
May you walk by faith and not by sight. May you live by the promises of Elohiym and not by what your eyes see. May you see movement in your circumstances, glimpses of glory that reminds you your Abba Elohiym is very much involved in your life. He is writing a story, arranging circumstances, moving in the hearts of people specifically for you. He loves you that much. Let your joyful heart testify to your abounding trust in Him. It will please YHVH and encourage others.
SERIES L --- THE NATION DIVIDES --- LESSON 17
A NORTHERN KINGDOM
KING JEROBOAM
From 1 Kings 12:20, 25-33; 13:1 -32; 2 Chronicles 11:13-16
When Rehoboam had been made king, Jeroboam came from his exile in Egypt, where he had gone to escape from Solomon. Years before, Solomon had realized that Jeroboam would someday take over his throne and Solomon had tried to kill him. With a delegation from the people, Jeroboam went to Solomon’s son Rehoboam and asked that he lighten the load of work and taxes which had been placed upon them. But Rehoboam spoke harshly to him and warned that he would burden the people even more. With that, the people of the northern ten tribes rebelled and Rehoboam was left with only the tribes of Judah and Benjamin. Jeroboam became the king of the northern ten tribes of Israel. He made the city of Shechem his capital and built it into a strong fortress. Later he fortified Penuel. Jeroboam was concerned about yet another matter. [If the people go to Jerusalem to worship, they will offer sacrifices at the temple in Jerusalem and may change their loyalties to Rehoboam while they are there. Then they will kill me and make Rehoboam king of all the land.] After talking it over with his counsellors, Jeroboam decided to make two golden calf idols. One of them he placed at Bethel in the south of his territory and the other he placed at Dan in the extreme north. [You need not go all the way to Jerusalem to worship now,] Jeroboam told the people. [Here are your gods who brought you from Egypt.] This was a great sin, for the people began to worship these idols. Jeroboam also made shrines in the high places on top of the hills and set up his own system of priests from the common people who were not Levites. Since Jeroboam had forced the priests and Levites of Adonai from their work, they abandoned their lands and homes and went to Judah where they could still serve in YHVH’s temple. Many other people fled to Jerusalem too, for at that time Rehoboam had not yet turned away from Adonai and he was encouraging people to worship and sacrifice to Adonai in Jerusalem. Jeroboam arranged for a festival to be held at Bethel on the fifteenth day of the eighth month [November 1], a date he chose himself. It was a festival similar to the Tabernacle Festival which was held in Judah each year. There at Bethel he himself offered sacrifices to the golden calves and burned incense and ordained priests for the high places in the hills. But while Jeroboam was standing beside the altar at Bethel burning incense, a prophet of YHVH from Judah came forward and spoke as Adonai had directed him. [O altar, this is what Adonai says. A child named Josiah, one of the descendants of David, will sacrifice upon you the same priests who come here to burn incense upon you. And the bones of other people shall be burned upon you also.] Then the prophet of YHVH told of a sign that would show that he was speaking the truth. [Adonai will send this sign,] he said. [This altar will split apart and its ashes will spill upon the ground.] King Jeroboam was angry when he heard what the prophet said. [Arrest that man!] he shouted, stretching out his hand toward him. But Jeroboam’s outstretched hand became paralyzed and he could not pull it back. At the same time, the altar split apart and the ashes spilled to the ground, just as the prophet of YHVH had said it would. [Beg your YHVH to heal my hand,] Jeroboam pleaded. The prophet prayed and Adonai healed Jeroboam’s hand. [Now come to my palace and I will reward you with some food,] the king offered. [I could not go to your palace to eat or drink, even if you gave me half of it,] the prophet answered. [Adonai Commanded me not to eat or drink here and to go home by another way.] Then he started home by a different road from the one by which he had come. Now there was an old prophet who lived at Bethel. His sons saw and heard what had happened and they told their father about the prophet from Judah and his message. [Which road did he take toward home?] the old prophet asked and his sons told him which road the younger prophet had taken. [Saddle my donkey for me,] the older prophet told his sons. They quickly obeyed and saddled his donkey and he started out to find the other prophet. At last, he found the man sitting under an oak tree. [Are you the prophet from Judah?] he asked. [Yes,] the man answered. [Then come home with me to eat,] said the older prophet. [I cannot do that,] the prophet from Judah answered. [I must not eat or drink with anyone here in Israel for that is Adonai’s Command. He also Commanded me to go home another way.] [But I also am a prophet,] said the older man. Then he lied to the prophet from Judah. [Adonai sent an angel who said that I should bring you home with me to eat and drink.] The prophet from Judah believed the older man and went back to Bethel with him to eat and drink at his house. As they sat there eating together, Adonai spoke to the younger prophet through the older one. [This is what Adonai says,] spoke the older prophet. [You disobeyed My Commandment and came back here to eat and drink, which I had said you should not do. Therefore, you will die here and will not be buried at home with your ancestors.] After the two prophets were through eating, the older one saddled the donkey for the prophet from Judah and sent him on his way. On his way home a lion attacked and killed him. Before long, the old prophet learned what had happened from some people who were travelling to Bethel. [That must be the prophet who disobeyed Adonai,] he said. [Adonai has punished him by sending a lion to kill him, just as He said He would do.] Then the older prophet gave orders to his sons, [Saddle my donkey for me,] he said. When they did, he rode out to the place where the prophet from Judah was killed. The lion and the prophet’s donkey were still standing beside the prophet’s body, but the lion had not eaten the prophet or killed his donkey. The prophet from Bethel put the dead man’s body on his donkey and brought him back home for burial, laying him in his own grave. Then he and his family mourned for the man saying, [Alas, my brother!] When the burial was completed, the older prophet said to his sons, [When I die, I want you to bury me beside this man’s remains in this grave, for the warning which Adonai gave through him against the altar at Bethel and the high places in the cities of Samaria will surely be fulfilled.]
COMMENTARY
THE IDOLS OF JEROBOAM
Jeroboam came to power after the angry split between the ten northern tribes and the southern tribes of Judah and Benjamin. Suddenly the northern Israelites were without a place to worship. The traditions built around the temple had vanished; the temple, altar and the Ark of the Covenant remained below the border in Jerusalem. Jeroboam quickly realized that if he did not provide a sanctuary in his northern area, the people would continue to go to the temple to worship and keep their allegiance to Jerusalem. His kingdom would not succeed. With great cleverness, he built shrines in Bethel and Dan, both holy sites with sacred traditions even older than Jerusalem’s. He appointed priests and set up a golden calf in each shrine. Then, to keep the people from joining the southern Israelites in the yearly pilgrimage to Jerusalem, he moved the Feast of Tabernacles to an earlier month. But the introduction of the golden calves led to disaster. The people, forgetting the invisibility of Adonai, confused the golden calves with the bulls used in the Canaanite worship of Baal Jeroboam’s statues became idols of pagan worship to the Israelites of the north.
"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."
1Jn 2
The name of the most high is yahuah
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It seems I forgot to post yesterday.
https://thestraightandnarrow.cfw.me/comics/605
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My serenity...
If life is a journey, what is the destination? Why is the road so rough, with so many twists and turns? And why are we powerless to overcome the perils along the way? Or are we really powerless to deliver ourselves from the dire circumstances of life?
https://thebarkingfox.com/2023..../04/08/theres-no-pla
If life is a journey, what is the destination? Why is the road so rough, with so many twists and turns? And why are we powerless to overcome the perils along the way? Or are we really powerless to deliver ourselves from the dire circumstances of life?
https://thebarkingfox.com/2023..../04/08/theres-no-pla
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