Ezekiel's bones

A very unexpected reflection on spiritual growth

Contents

  • Intro - where I yak about myself but point out why look at Ezekiel’s ‘bones’
  • Them bones
  • Regrowing the body
  • Bringing the bones to life
  • Ruach entering
  • Messiah entering
  • Wrapping up
     

Intro - where I yak about myself but point out why look at Ezekiel’s ‘bones’

 

Some of you may have gotten to know me a bit since I’ve come onto this site. And you may shake your head at some of the things I say, but I do hope you see that I have one characteristic above everything, I base what I say on the Word and the Word only. If I see things which no-one else sees, ok, but I’m only talking about what I see in the Word, as defined by the OT and the NT, the generally accepted understanding of what that is, neither adding other books, nor taking away any.

I base my logic on God’s grace and power.

His grace, that He would make His Word available to all, and not to some select few, so that, in the common denominator of general acceptance, the OT and the NT, everything necessary to come to understanding is there.

His power, that, despite all attempts by the adversary to the contrary, nothing of the Word has been altered through all these years, understanding we’re talking about what is known as the interlinear version of the Word, the original, or oldest available, texts in Hebrew (mostly, for the Tanakh, the OT), and Greek (for the NT). 

How those writings came about, well in my opinion none of the authors of the books ever spoke their own words, this includes later ‘additions, amendments etc’, that’s to keep the scholars occupied, it’s always been God speaking. But that’s a discussion about the origin of the Word, I’m talking about the Word itself, once it had been ‘solidified’.

I say this because, quite simply, I believe, and have faith in God, and His Son, His Word.

If you wish, those ‘controversies’ on a scholarly level, plus the divisions that God allowed to occur inside the church organisations, councils, dogmas, translations etc, were all intended to produce diversion so that the adversary would, being the author of these diversions, think he’s winning his rebellion, sowing confusion and doubt, and so he thought there was no necessity to actually change the Word itself, or probably God simply didn’t let him, and the Word, which seems so vulnerable, like a sitting duck, came down through the centuries unscathed.(man, I like the way God works - Glory!).

So it should come as no surprise that I’ve never belonged to a church, or placed myself behind a movement, or way of thinking. I acknowledge nobody between me and the Father except the Son (the Word) and the Spirit (Ruach), and on this point, they do not stand between so much as in support, as an Elder Brother (said in full acknowledgement of supreme status and intercessory role - my King, Priest and Saviour) and a Mother.

Apart from them, I listen to everybody, I defer to none.

I do not desire to hear someone telling me to ‘know the Lord’, I desire the Word to be inscribed in my heart.

I work towards what I call (for the Bible tells me so…) ‘those days’.

And I think everyone should.

I’m NOT busy telling you to ‘know the Lord’, I’m busy imparting how does this circumscribing work. This inscribing in the heart.

And so, here’s where it hurts, because this is where you could cancel me, ghost me, switch off on me. I love you guys, I respond to your sincerity and effort, but I cannot say I am a torah-keeper.  Not because you’re wrong, not at all, but because you don’t go further. Everything you say, within generally accepted constraints, we all go off-topic on our own trajectory sometimes, has basis, but only while you live. 

And we’re supposed to die. That what we all aspire to ONLY happens when we die; I’m talking about that wonderful ‘impossibility’ (for us) of ‘to ourselves’, why impossible? Who of you, and I include myself, will comment hey Henk, been there done that? Not sinning anymore are we? No clever arguments, please, this is serious.

So, the answer lies in Ezekiel’s bones. Those bones! This is a matter of timing and feeling. I’ve felt the need to talk about this for a while now, and enough subject matters have been raised for the timing to feel right to broach the bones and weave in many things.

A cup of coffee or tea is a good accessory…

 

Them bones

 

Let me start quoting the Word now. Ezekiel 37, and that valley of dry bones.

I’m really going to go step by step on this. Please follow me, because let me tell you, you are NOT hearing what I’m going to say from those accepted as leaders of sheep in whatever form (not knocking them as much as they don’t see what they’re not looking for, I wasn’t either). 

 

*** Ezekiel 37 (everything BSB translation)

4And He said to me, “Prophesy concerning these bones and tell them, ‘Dry bones, hear the word of the LORD!

5This is what the Lord GOD says to these bones: I will cause breath to enter you, and you will come to life.

6I will attach tendons to you and make flesh grow upon you and cover you with skin. I will put breath within you so that you will come to life. Then you will know that I am the LORD.’”

7So I prophesied as I had been commanded. And as I prophesied, there was suddenly a noise, a rattling, and the bones came together, bone to bone.

8As I looked on, tendons appeared on them, flesh grew, and skin covered them; but there was no breath in them.

9Then He said to me, “Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and tell the breath that this is what the Lord GOD says: Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe into these slain, so that they may live!”

10So I prophesied as He had commanded me, and the breath entered them, and they came to life and stood on their feet—a vast army.

11Then He said to me, “Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. Look, they are saying, ‘Our bones are dried up, and our hope has perished; we are cut off.’

12Therefore prophesy and tell them that this is what the Lord GOD says: ‘O My people, I will open your graves and bring you up from them, and I will bring you back to the land of Israel.

13Then you, My people, will know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves and bring you up from them.

14I will put My Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I, the LORD, have spoken, and I will do it, declares the LORD.’”

***

 

So, in an interesting twist, verse 11 tells us these dry bones are the whole house of Israel.

Dead men walking. from the spiritual perspective, people still alive to the world are in reality dead. The dead components of their bodies are joined and (re-)grown. But, still dead, lacking breath.

And the Spirit (Ruach) must come to get them to live.

But first, how does this regrowing work? 

 

Regrowing the body

 

Let’s go to the NT, Colossians 2.

And no, I’m not going to go anti torah-keeping here, it’s just that Paul’s confusing statements regarding torah-keeping are intertwined with what I now want to show you. Focus on verse 19. I do apologise for putting you through this.

 

*** Colossians 2

16Therefore let no one judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a feast, a New Moon, or a Sabbath.

17These are a shadow of the things to come, but the body that casts it belongs to Christ.

18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you with speculation about what he has seen. Such a person is puffed up without basis by his unspiritual mind.

19He has lost connection to the head, from whom the whole body, supported and knit together by its joints and ligaments, grows as God causes it to grow.

20If you have died with Christ to the spiritual forces of the world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its regulations: 21“Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!”?

***

 

Verse 19 is describing how the spiritual body is (re-)growing, Ezekiel’s dry bone regrowing.

And verse 20 mentions IF, very important that, one has died with Christ.

Again, I’m not going anti torah-keeping, although I will say that what is being said here must be included in one’s understanding of God, you can’t ignore pieces you don’t like.

So here obviously much deeper digging is required to figure out why it looks like the Law is being disrespected. It isn’t, but right now we’re working on that new spiritual body.

So, joints and ligaments regrown on the dry bones, but lacking breath. Not alive yet.

 

Bringing the bones to life

 

Now it gets really interesting.

How does the breath come into the dead spiritual body?

 

*** Romans 8

9You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.

***

 

Well, the Spirit of God needs to live in you, says verse 9, and then it says without the Spirit of Christ one does not belong to Christ (remember Col 2:20 mentioning IF one has died with Christ).

(Yes, I am saying the Spirit of Christ is not the Spirit of God. the Spirit of God is IN Christ, and therefore in the Spirit of Christ too. Read carefully, and go look at the only other mention of the Spirit of Christ.)

Verse 10 says that once Christ, i.e. His Spirit, is IN you, then your spirit is alive, i.e., now the Spirit of God also lives in you.

(So this makes a distinction when the Word talks of the Spirit only (and apart from those two mentions of the Spirit of Christ, all mentions of the Spirit are referring to the Ruach), and when it talks of the Spirit ‘living in you’.) 

How does THAT work?

This first part should be familiar territory, so I’ll skip quotes.

Messiah tells us we can’t enter the Kingdom unless we are born a second time.

This happens when Father calls us out of Egypt, and we are baptised by Messiah’s baptism, the baptism of the Spirit (of God, Ruach, not of Christ).

So, we have now been spiritually born, OF the Spirit, but the Spirit does not live in us yet, in fact the stage we’re going through from birth is the dead bones having the joints and ligaments being regrown to make the, as of yet, dead body whole. No breathe yet.

The only person on whom the Spirit descended and remained (living IN Him) is Messiah.

What I’m starting to say here is that a huge part of our walk in the Way, our very growing  in the Spirit (which we do understand we are experiencing), is happening BEFORE we live in the Spirit, we are still growing Ezekiel’s dead bones, joints, ligaments, flesh, skin etc.  

And so, one can understand better why, while we know we’re growing in the Spirit, we still have such a problem rejecting the world, a problem dying to it in fact. Because we are still alive to it while we grow our spiritual body, because it, while growing, is still dead, no breath.

THIS is what no-one is looking for, to hear this.

Your spiritual body only comes alive once fully grown.

 

In a beautiful mirroring, physically at birth the Breathe of life (Ruach) is breathed in us, and we grow to our fullness, our adult bodies. And then spiritually from birth we grow to our fullness, and then the Breathe (Ruach) ENTERS us. At last it lives IN us.

 

Ruach entering

 

Let me show you something.

And at the same time, settle the argument which came first, the chicken or the egg?

 

*** Genesis 2

7Then the LORD God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed the breath of life into his nostrils, and the man became a living being

***

 

So the Ruach breathes the breath of life in us. Dig a bit and you’ll see that the word ‘breathed’ in this passage refers to the action happening via the Ruach. Now as the very first man, we presume Adam was fully formed, that the very first formation was a full one, kickstarting mankind, as it were. But he was fully formed from dust of the ground, not living flesh and blood till the Ruach breathed life into him. The chicken came first. But when they made children, they came out as eggs, sorry, babies, receiving the breath of life (as embryo or with the first lungful, doesn’t matter, life comes first) and then growing. Only Adam and Eve did not as such need to grow. This is presumption, as Genesis simply does not go into detail about this. But we do know how babies are made.

And now careful reading shows something. Back to Ezekiel’s passage. Zooming in.

 

***  Ezekiel 37

9Then He said to me, “Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and tell the breath that this is what the Lord GOD says: Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe into these slain, so that they may live!”

10So I prophesied as He had commanded me, and the breath entered them, and they came to life and stood on their feet—a vast army.

***

 

Super-interesting, because in verse 9 God commands the Breath (Ruach) to BREATHE into these slain, in the same manner as Adam was brought to life.

But in verse 10, seemingly in disobedience to God’s command, what happens? The Breath ENTERS them.

And to quickly still the incredulity that could engender, verse 14

***

14I will put My Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I, the LORD, have spoken, and I will do it, declares the LORD.’”

***

 

Phew, God is now telling Ezekiel to prophesy to His people, and confirms the Breath, the Ruach, the Spirit of God, DID do what God wanted after all, because He wants His Spirit IN His people. (It’s worded like this precisely so that one has to work at understanding, at first one doesn’t even see anything strange.)

It takes careful reading and a desire to know to get to this. Do please remember, it is always only opening the ears to what the Spirit, our Helper, is whispering to us.

The question is, did we WANT to know this, that our growing spirit does not yet live?

Well, if you want to understand how things work, yes.

But this was still prophecy, to Ezekiel. The Messiah had not yet come. But now He has, and I’ve explained that what’s needed is for Him, having the Ruach in Him, to now enter us.

 

Messiah entering

 

Why does it require Ruach to enter via Messiah?

 

*** Jeremiah 31

 33But this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD.

I will put My law in their minds and inscribe it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they will be My people.

***

 

In Jeremiah Messiah, as the Word, the fulfilment of the Law, or the fulfilled Law, is ‘what’ God is promising to put in our minds and inscribe on our hearts. Not Ruach, which is what Ezekiel is talking about. And the NT is showing us both things working out to fulfil God’s Word. 

Our spirit coming to life, occurring after our spiritual growth, happens as close as it can be to the end of the Way we walk.

And that is when the Word talks of it happening.

Now I have to place an emphasis on the nature of the Spirit of God. I have written about this in other places, so I’m not going to get exhaustive about it (I hear the sigh of relief) but, in short.

The Spirit of God is a seven-fold Spirit. When we are born spiritually we get born OF that seven-fold Spirit IN its image, i.e. we are ourselves a seven-fold spirit. The occurrence of 7, as it pertains to us, is always referring to our spiritual nature.

Understanding that, and looking at the seven churches of revelation, I say we’re talking about exactly that growth we’re going through in each message to each church, or aspect, of our seven-fold spirit. And it is only in the message to the last church, Laodicea, that He says, 

 

*** Revelation 3

20Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in and dine with him, and he with Me. 21To the one who overcomes, I will grant the right to sit with Me on My throne, just as I overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

***

 

Right at the end, either as last step before overcoming, or once having overcome, He knocks, and if we open the door, He comes IN.

Our bones come to life at last and here we also see that it is not WE who take the step that brings the Spirit into us to make us live, but Messiah initiates it. As it should be.

And now, placing an emphasis on the topography of the Way, again, in short.

The Way takes us through 4 areas, known through the Israelites journey as Egypt, the wilderness (or Assyria, but I’m keeping it short), Canaan (later renamed Israel) and Jerusalem.

The characteristics of these areas are what impact on us as we walk through them on our Way. And, for clarity, they impact in turn on the respective parts of our seven-fold spirit, built up in the four-fold description - 3 pairs and one. Go look at Isaiah’s depiction in chapter 11 of the seven-fold spirit, and Exodus 25’s depiction of the menorah.

Now, the 4 Gospels are reflecting these 4 areas too.

While we live in a dead, growing spirit body (weird to think of like that, I know) the three synoptics enjoin us at the Last Supper to take the bread and drink of the cup, which Luke tells us is to remember Messiah, because He’s not in us yet.

But John, depicting the Last Supper, drops any requirement to remember Him, it’s not needed, once He’s LIVING in us. Us, we, are LIVING spirits now.

 

Wrapping up

 

People, I was not looking for this, an understanding that we are still dead while we spiritually grow. Some of  you noticed I recently came across a new thing (the distinction between the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ) and was blown away by it.

This is why, because this last piece of the puzzle made me look at something I was NOT looking to see. You might as well say, wanting to see.

But, if you can see what I’m talking about, and think about many other things, things start falling into place.

Let me mention a last something, because it’s important.

God the Father chooses who He calls, our first election (of Israel) . We then choose how our walk goes on the Way that we enter, once elected. How, if, we grow, but we don’t get to choose if the Spirit lives in us or not. That choice Messiah makes there at the end, our second election (of Revelation). Of course He’s not in disagreement with the Father in this.

Keep in mind, 

 

*** Matthew 7

22Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’

23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!

***

 

Are you sure they weren’t initially called?

I have given AN understanding of how does this circumscribing work.  Thank you for your attention.

This article could not have been written without Ruach.


Henk Wouters

10 Article Posts

Comments
Rhy Bezuidenhout 1 w

Wow, your article has taken my thoughts into so many directions.

Can you please clarify the parallel you draw between Gen 2:7 and Ezekiel 37:9?

Genesis 2:7 the word 'neshamah' is translated as breath, so it is like the kiss of life in CPR that was given to Adam. I don't see any references to ruach in this passage so can't draw a parallel with Ezekiel 37. In English, ruach, is translated in Ezekiel as wind and breath. So we have actual wind/breath in Gen 2:7 which makes Adam is living soul, but in Ezekiel 37 it is the ruach that raises the bones.

Here are a few thoughts on the other verses you shared:

As for Paul in Colossians 2, it fits in with Rom 8 where we are told that Torah is powerful to save, but our flesh has made it powerless. The flaw is in us, not in the law. This is now a balancing act, on a razor's edge, as we have to accept that keeping the Law is powerful to save, or we are saying that no one before Yeshua's crucifixion was saved. At the same time, we have to accept that if we do not keep the law in it's entirety that only grace can save us as we have through our own doing made the law powerless to save us.

So why try to be a Torah keeper/follower? Because it instills Father's values into our lives. We also show Father that we are at least trying to keep His "house rules" as we want to be recognized as one of His children. By trying to follow Torah to gain salvation and then still missing a single law requirement, we are missing the mark = sinning.

I'm always interested in people's interpretation of Revelation when it comes to literalism vs spiritualism. This becomes evident in examples like understanding does "soon" mean "soon" and "quickly" = "quickly". Then there are some mental gymnastics where some parts are to be understood literal and others spiritual; naturally dependent on the reader and their own doctrines.

I have understood Father having a 7-fold spirit, but never brought this to mean that people also have a 7-fold spirit.

For me the 7-churches where just that, 7 actual churches. 5 out of the 7 cities still exist in some form today (Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, and Philadelphia). The churches themselves (Christian congregations) no longer exist as they once did, due to historical events like Islamic conquests and cultural shifts. However, Christian minorities still exist in some of these regions, especially in Izmir (Smyrna). So, if we dare we can count Smyrna as the last surviving of the 7 churches.

Then there is the doctrine that it refers to 7 church ages and we are supposedly living in the last age. But then "soon" and "quickly" can't be taken literally in Rev 1.

Quick Point: Jeremiah 31 is evidence that we are not living under the Second Covenant as believers are all still either trying to learn Torah or are teaching others.

Revelation 3:21 talks of an event that again can't be taken literal as heaven is never the end destination of those who gain eternal life and in no place in the Bible is there any time when people will literally "sit with Me on My throne". So this verse can only be taken as proverbially reigning with Yeshua, but where and when as only those in Rev 20 who gets resurrected in the First Resurrection gets to reign with Yeshua during the Millennium.

 
 
Henk Wouters 1 w

great stuff, thanks for commenting rhy, because looking back there are things i'd like to clarify, but don't want to edit what i've already put out. i'm going to chop my reply up a bit, as you've covered a huge swathe of territory.
i'm going to answer the Neshamah Ruach issue first, because it is fundamental to the concept.
gen 2:7 uses Neshamah, let me bring strong's lexicon in

Definition: Breath, spirit, soul
Meaning: a puff, wind, angry, vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect, an animal
Word Origin: Derived from the root נָשַׁם (nasham), meaning "to pant" or "to breathe."
Usage: The Hebrew word "neshamah" primarily refers to the breath of life, the vital force that animates living beings. It is often used to denote the divine breath that God imparts to humans, signifying life and the spiritual essence of a person. In the Hebrew Bible, "neshamah" is closely associated with the concept of life given by God and is sometimes used interchangeably with "ruach" (spirit).

so here we see an ancient linking with Ruach already.
two things,

one, i, and i hope, we, understand that the Father is the primal Force, however you want to say it, and He does not directly 'do' that what His Will desires, and the Ruach being the instrument here is so tied up with the identity of the Ruach itself that it makes It the only, nevermind, prime candidate. so much so that Neshamah and Ruach are used interchangeably.

two, the root from which Neshamah is derived, nasham. lexicon again

Definition: To pant, to gasp
Meaning: to blow away, destroy
Usage: The Hebrew verb "nasham" primarily conveys the act of panting or gasping, often associated with heavy breathing due to exertion, fear, or distress. It is a vivid term that captures the physical response to intense situations, whether from physical activity or emotional stress.
Cultural and Historical Background: In ancient Hebrew culture, physical expressions such as panting or gasping were often used metaphorically to describe spiritual or emotional states. The physical act of gasping for breath could symbolize desperation, urgency, or the need for divine intervention. In a historical context, such expressions would resonate with a people familiar with the harsh realities of life in a rugged, often hostile environment, where physical exertion and the struggle for survival were common.

so looking at that, a distinction is starting to become clear. nasham is very much referring to physical breath (metaphorically describing a spiritual or mental state has nothing to do with the Spirit, but with oneself), and so Neshamah i understand to mean 'the breathing of physical breath into, by the Ruach', indeed, we're talking about the soul. the life force of a physical creature. also, that would also be where Neshamah and Ruach are separated in meaning. while we are referring to the Ruach in physical life giving function, we can interchange with Neshamah, but when we move to spiritual life giving, we have to distinguish.

now, the Law. like i said, a real deep study is required to fully understand this 'rejection' that the Law seems to get.
remember i said the Law (of course) has basis while we are still alive? and, delightfully put, what i have seen others say, 'i follow the Law because i am saved'?
so while our spiritual body is growing, there's no reason to 'deny' the Law yet, we're still alive to our physical selves, not dead to that yet. stronger, just as the Law is of great use before 'discovering' Messiah (yes, we are then saved, but as of yet that's a qualified statement), so it is before 'receiving' Messiah (and Spirit, therefore at last spiritually coming to life, and now it's unqualified) in one.
now, this 'denying' of the Law is only applicable once spiritually brought to life, which means the fulfilled Law is now inscribed in our heart. and so that what is 'shadow' in the Law of moses is no longer in force.
so, not understanding, while on the journey of the Way, before spiritually coming alive, the 'christians' have already dumped the Law, prematurely.
and, not understanding, the torah-keepers want to hang onto its shadow part even after spiritually coming alive (which anyway is still futurespeak, the growing is still happening), when it HAS been superceded. it's in your heart now...without shadows.

if i may. there is a wonderful liberation in understanding one grows before spiritual life is granted, instead of beating yourself up for not 'making the grade', because i have the Spirit but i don't act like it, don't sweat it, you're still busy growing, work on that with an easy mind but hard effort.

 
 
Henk Wouters 1 w

continuing...
we're not saying no-one before Yeshua's crucifixion was saved. we ARE saying john the baptist was the greatest of those, yet even the least in the Kingdom is greater than him. should make us realise how privileged we who came after are..we are blessed indeed, and they who came before are cheering us on, happy it's come about at last, from my understanding of the Word.

haha, i've never looked at it as literal VS spiritual, it's literal AND spiritual. both. one speaks to the physical man, the other to the spiritual man. it's applicable used before spiritual birth, and after, they require different knowledge.

us having a seven-fold spirit is me listening like a child, i suppose. when we (adam and eve) were made, we were physically made 'in the image' of God, and so i just wide-eyed understand when the seven-fold Spirit of the Father births our spiritual being, we are made 'in the image' of the Spirit making us.

the issue of the seven churches geographically is hopefully covered in an understanding that there's also a spiritual meaning. btw, of far more importance spiritually is positioning. ie ephesus in the letters of paul has a different positioning than in the letters to the churches.
as for the seven 'ages', well, spiritually indeed, they are seven subdivisions of the Way we all traverse. literally, the problem i have is have you SEEN how many different doctrinal definitions are out there? i duck my head and swim in the peaceful waters of spiritual contemplation. the problem is human power games are involved (just now tr*mp wants to 'annex' each existing church site) when referring to the literal stuff, but one can't play power games with the spiritual stuff. there's no angle to abuse. what am i going to say? gimme money, your allegiance, etc, and then i'll tell Messiah to enter you? i feel blasphemous even typing that!
the important part is our spiritual self, what can i say?

quite right, jeremiah's vision is not yet reality, literally, nor before such time as we become spiritually alive. but our spiritual 'enlivening' IS a process which does, or does not, happen in our own lifetime. that's the 'saints'.

lastly, sorry, revelation as usual is a great muddier of waters. i am working to understand that as well, and do see lots, but i suspect full understanding is only for living spiritual beings, either once the Spirit lives in them or at the end-game.
queens do sit on thrones, and the bride of the King is also a queen...

 
 
Rhy Bezuidenhout 1 w

My thinking has always been that a lexicon is just a dictionary where someone is trying to explain an unknown language in a different language. I therefore have to take the translation as someone's opinion. As example, the way that "neshamah" can be used interchangeably for words as far apart as breath and spirit makes me wonder about the intent of the translation. It is translated 17 x breath, 3 x blast, 2 x spirit, 1 x inspiration and 1 x souls. Was a translator trying to put a meaning into a passage by translating the word differently?

Just a few chapters later in Gen 7:22 we see neshamah translated as "life"; it reads: "All in whose nostrils was the breath of life [heshamah], of all that was in the dry land died."

Gen 2:7 is cause for the foundational belief that a person has a body, soul and spirit and yet the doctrine is not supported in Scripture. If it is then we also have to believe that animals have souls as the same word is used interchangeably for all living things that had the breath of life.

I can therefore not conclude that Gen 2:7 is also speaking of the Spirit of Father as word “ruach” is not mentioned in that passage.

Yes, I totally agree with you in "nasham is very much referring to physical breath". What I still don't see is a connection between the Ruach and breathing into a body or a breath.

This looks to come down to the trinity doctrine. If we say there is Father, Son and Ruach then for sure the Ruach is a separate entity. But again I personally do not see that reflected in scripture as I see Father and Son and then Father's spirit goes out. Every place where the Holy Spirit is mentioned a person can just read in Father’s Spirit and it make total sense.

I am sure that we agree that Father is spirit and that He is holy; therefore the Holy Spirit or Ruach Hakodesh is Father’s spirit. (We can then expand on the 7-fold spirit, but that is a totally different subject.)

I briefly looked at all the verse using "neshamah" and tried to find an English word that would better fit in with these verses and the only one I could come up with was “lifeforce”; and I see you also came to a similar outcome. It’s interesting how the Oxford dictionary explains “lifeforce” as: “the spirit which animates living creatures; the soul.“ So even they are connecting the word with “soul”. That then even fits in with Gen 7:22 as animals are animated as well, but doesn’t have the church’s understanding of a “soul”.

Just for some background, the origins of the concept of a “soul” come from Origen’s writings. Origen of Alexandria (c. 185–c. 254) was an early Christian theologian, scholar, and ascetic. He was a key figure in the development of Christian theology and philosophy and was widely accepted by the early church until he got considered a heretic; Origen's work is considered foundational to Christian theology.

As for the law, I do agree. We keep the law because we are saved and not to be saved. This is what many who reject the law don’t understand. And yes, it is just a shadow of the law as we don’t fully understand it anymore nor can we practice all of it.

I think we both agree that the law by itself has power to save as you said “we're not saying no-one before Yeshua's crucifixion was saved” which indicates that they had to be saved from the bondage of sin somehow and only the prescribed law could do that.

Yes, we are blessed indeed as we can ask for grace when we do fall short of the mark.

On Revelation, you mentioned that it is “literal AND spiritual”. That makes it very difficult to understand then indeed as the timing then is out with the literal churches were told by Yeshua that He was returning soon and well, they are no more. So I am then back at parts being literal and other spiritual as the first few chapters are already failing this test of being both literal and spiritual…😣

Have you ever visited a wax museum where the artists were really good at making likenesses? The wax models look so similar to the actual person that it can sometime be difficult to distinguish them apart. The model is made in the likeness of the person, but doesn’t have the nature and other characteristics of the person. I can therefore assume that Father has 2 arms, 2 legs, a head, etc., but I can’t assume because Father has the capability to create through speech that I can too. Or that He has a 7-fold spirit that I now also have one. This could lead us down the path of the small-g “god” doctrine so many are teaching. “We are made in Father’s image and therefore we are gods…”

I can see the connections you are making between ruach and breath which then comes back to the bones coming to life. For me, there is more digging needed to get a firmer Scriptural connection as Gen 2:7 Is just not proving the hypotheses, but it doesn’t mean that other verses might not support the it.

 
 
Henk Wouters 1 w

right, souls and spirits.
some things are intertwining here, so let's see if i can manage to be clear myself.
we agree Neshamah equates to 'lifeforce', the clay vessel Father has made gets animated by this lifeforce. it's physical, with death the lifeforce departs from the vessel, that's not to say the lifeforce itself dies.

here's psalm 104

29When You hide Your face,
they are terrified;
when You take away their breath,
they die and return to dust.

30When You send Your Spirit,
they are created,
and You renew
the face of the earth.

read in english that's pretty clear, no?
yet breath in verse 29 and Spirit in verse 30 both refer to Ruach... and yet in context, 29 is referring in a temporal way to lifeforce as in Neshamah (physical lifeforce side of Ruach), and 30 is referring to Spirit as in (spiritual, non-temporal lifeforce side of) Ruach in the new creation.

ok, now when the NT was written in greek it took these concepts over, Neshamah becoming soul, and Ruach becoming the Holy Spirit (which, to answer another point, i totally agree, is exactly the same as Father's Spirit).
was that a baseless takeover?

Matthew 12:18

“Here is My Servant,
whom I have chosen,
My beloved,
in whom My soul delights.
I will put My Spirit on Him,
and He will proclaim justice to the nations.

referring to isaiah 42:1

“Here is My Servant, whom I uphold,
My Chosen One, in whom My soul delights.
I will put My Spirit on Him,
and He will bring justice to the nations.

so Father has soul (Neshamah) too! well, no surprise, it has to come from somewhere, doesn't it? needless to say, His is NOT temporary. we are of course all the time talking about the breath of life, and life comes from the Father.
verse 29 in psalm 104 could have read when You take away YOUR breath, but that would have made it a confusing text.

here is probably part of why some came to the conclusion the soul is eternal. HIS is, OURS isn't, with one exception.
in making this exception i have to say we (or i) just don't know enough about this.
we are going to be newly created beings, the exact nature of which is not made clear. clearly we will be spirit beings, Messiah DOES say that, but to what extent we also have a physical body, is uncertain. to any degree that we again/still have a physical body, well, that will need Neshamah in it again, won't it? and our spiritual body will need Ruach.
this logic applies to both the saved and the unsaved (if they also live eternally), having or not having spiritual and/or physical bodies.

having said all this, i've been looking at what the Word tells me, if origen, church doctrines or christian theologies say the same thing, then they are correct, in my opinion. if they differ, well, they've gone down a false path (or prove me wrong, with scripture, please). (don't worry, i have read them, well not every doctrine and all theological theories).

now to animals and men. yes, i see the animal as also having a soul. and that lifeforce is taken away at death. we however, as the 'pinnacle' of creation, are the ones granted spiritual birth too (if we're fished out of the pond), and must battle to grow spiritually.

the trinity issue is one of our own making. if i can paraphrase here, because i want to bring them all together
would i be wrong if i say this is something Messiah could say?
'I am in the Father as the Father is in me, and I will be in you and you will be in Me, and therefore in the Father'.
and though in all the texts i'm blending here there's no direct mention of Father's Spirit, the Holy Spirit did descend and remain on Messiah, and through Him comes into us, and so is there too all along.
my kneejerk reaction when i hear talk of trinity is always, don't you mean quadrinity? we're going to be there too, after all. for clarity, i am specifically referring to those of us who 'the bride' is going to be composed of. and no, saying this i am not implying we are equal to God, but we are the companion He makes for His Son.
i think gen 2:18 is the shadow of this

The LORD God also said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make for him a suitable helper.”

it starts with eve for adam, it ends with the bride for Yeshua.

again, sorry rhy, this time for space reasons i'm gonna skip going into revelation. but i WILL get to it. each comment seems like an article in itself...

 
 
raphaelmalachi 3 d

Before I comment on this, I want to understand what you mean by "Torah-keeping". The laws the Torah outlines are not discarded once a person is in heaven, but the basis for understanding why they are as they are shifts considerably. The way I'm reading what you have written is that the Torah law is only kept while a person is on Earth, and I'm figuring you mean that in the sense that the actual Torah Laws don't apply in heaven due to some Pauline understanding of Ezekiel. (That's mixing and matching modes pretty heavily there) I would strongly disagree with this notion, if I'm understanding what you mean accurately.

Finally, a baby is both growing AND alive--Ezekiel deals with something that is dead that is coming back to life and could even possibly be twice or, if there is such a thing, thrice dead.

 
 
Henk Wouters 3 d

the essence of the Law itself is a singular thing. being unable to grasp or keep it yet, this was imparted to israel in the wilderness through ten commandments (keeping it simple here), and through Messiah in fulfillment brought down to seven (even harder to keep), in the sermon of the mount matt 5:17-48 (the seven are in verse 21-48). the best expression we get of it's essence is the simple double-command of the great commandment. this is the Law, it doesn't change. the reason Yeshua fulfilled it is because it had been given incomplete the first time round for our sakes. animal sacrifice was required to compensate for our not keeping it. for our sakes. and Yeshua was required to be sacrificed for our not keeping it. for our sakes. and we, once we finally understand and perform it, sacrifice our living to the world, because we didn't keep it, for our spiritual birth at last to able to occur.
dying to the world really is a death, we cling to life even if it kills us...
those oxen etc were multiple substitutes for us, Yeshua sustituted once for us, when are we ready to accept the consequence of judgement ourselves? our OWN judgement of ourselves, btw. BECAUSE we now keep to the Law. the end goal is not to keep the Law, it is to apply the Law, to the only person you have a right to do so on. because you then did not spare yourself, the debt not being paid by substitution, God will show His mercy at last, and give you spiritual life. the Law, which never changes, has been applied.

i mentioned once, keepers of Torah don't go far enough, but hey, nobody does. they are, though, on the right track. love-emoji.

when i mentioned babies it was to only do with adam and eve's children, that's indeed living breathe received and then growing. dead is dead, there's only a second death coming after the great day. from a spiritual viewpoint, those dead dry bones ARE
our physical selves breathing thanks to Neshamah, but dead as far as Ruach is concerned. they're not coming back to life, they haven't spiritually lived yet.
do please note that those bones are of the children of israel, not of everybody. remember Yeshua said, in matthew 15:24
“I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
then comes spiritual birth, yet not life, and the 'growth' is the fleshing out of those dead bones, and then only comes spiritual life. once we've figured out what's keeping us dead.
in the big picture, that's what israel was busy going through, once those bones were fleshed, Yeshua came.
so no, this is not some pauline understanding of ezekiel, this is paul and ezekiel helping Yeshua's words and deeds be understood. so that God's justice, and His mercy, can be understood.