The Torah Network

40 w

When is sin, sin?

When an infant does something that is considered sin, is the child then to be punished as a person who knows the difference between right and wrong?

This is the discussion I had with myself after having my weekly meeting with two Jehovah’s Witnesses. This came about after we discussed the fact that Father put the tree of Good and Evil in the Garden and Yeshua's redemptive plan was set in motion.

1. Did Eve and Adam therefore willingly and knowingly sin by eating the fruit as they didn't know what sin was yet?
2. Did Father expect this to happen somewhere in time and therefore had a plan for Yeshua's sacrifice?
3. How does this all fit in with Father's sovereign will and our free will?

What are your thoughts on this?

#adameve #sin #garden #eden

Comment

1. Adam and Eve did sin when they ate from the tree because Yah warned them that something bad would happen if they did.

2. I believe that Father at least expected the possibility and prepared for that.

3. Father's teachings are to be obeyed and there are bad consequences if we disobey, but we have free will on whether or not we follow those teachings.

· Reply · 1727085940

18 Replies

When my children were little and they did something wrong that they didn't know was wrong I would not spank them or punish them. I would talk to them and teach them. Only when they did something wrong they knew was wrong they got punished.

· Reply · 1727224125

3 Replies

hmm, picking my own order, the first (4th) question is what are my thoughts on this, and so i give them. nothing chipped into stone here. just thoughts.

the next (2nd) question.
i for one consider Father to be omnipotent, as the Book says in many ways, and i say that because it hurts me when doubt is expressed regarding His omnipotence. having said that, let me stress that usually, the doubt expressed is regarding the understanding of Him, or, like in this case Rhy, His plan.
He made creation exactly perfect, according to His plan (not that i'm saying i know what that is, i just believe what He says), and He knows exactly where it's all leading to, the end result of the whole process. and so yes, He expected it to happen at exactly that time, and Yeshua's sacrifice was not a fixit plan, it was always an intrinsic part of the whole plan.

the next (3rd) question.
this touches on the whole predestination issue, which i consider an example of the mind dashing off the path into all kinds of swampy, pit-swallowing badlands. Father knows (knew before He made creation, from our point of view in time, He's outside of it) where each one of us is going to end up. that's the big picture, which doesn't tell us anything about ourselves. yet.
we, not knowing where we are going to end up, are at the mercy of our free will, and it also pulls us, many times, off the path into swamps etc. the whole point for us to come to is to acknowledge that our exercising of our free will is not conducive to a good ending, and for us to FREELY choose to align our will with that of Father.
to freely will to discard our free will, as it were.
until such time as we've done that, we don't know where we'll end up. yet.
(in fact, Father is even in control of our will, but that is such a mind-bender that i'm not going to bring it into this discussion, except to acknowledge this to those who are aware of it. it's to do with the moving of hearts)

the next (1st) question.
Father told adam not to eat from the tree (Gen 2:17), eve wasn't there yet. eve heard from adam what Father said, read her reply to the serpent carefully (Gen 3:3), where did touching the tree come into it?
also, this incident regards three persons, let's not forget that serpent.
to sin is to miss, to go wrong. it can be seen as the failure to do right. let's bring Isaiah 7:16 into this
'For before the boy knows enough to reject evil and choose good, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste.'
now this is a (shadow) prophecy regarding Immanuel (Yeshua), and so the meaning in His case is different, see the previous verse, verse 15, but what is clear is that a child has to learn not to sin.
in fact, the word sin is only introduced in the next chapter of Genesis, with regard to cain (Gen 4:7).
and so yes, adam and eve had yet to learn not to sin, being infants in their adulthood, as it were.
now, this question is actually two questions, actually four.
i'm sorry, i do dissect heavily, don't i? but if you've read this far i'm assuming you will continue.
did eve willingly sin, did eve knowingly sin, did adam willingly sin, did adam knowingly sin.
now, they both willingly did what they did.
but eve heard from adam that God said she'd die if she ate, and then heard from the serpent that she wouldn't, and he portrayed it as a desirable action. so her problem was she believed the wrong person, she believed the serpent, not adam. but i can't say she did this knowingly, this smacks of ignorance.
adam, on the other hand, knew first hand that he should not do this.
he knowingly failed to do right. even worse, he made no attempt to dissuade eve, as he was with her at the time(Gen 3:6).
but, like the children they were, they were not yet fully aware of the consequences of their sin. that quickly became clear.
now there is much more to what God informed them those consequences were than meets the eye, but i'll wrap this up only with this observation;
the serpent himself was cursed (all Gen ch 3, verse 14)
eve was (only) allocated pain (verse 16)
adam had the ground cursed for his sake (verse 17)
and he was doomed to return to the dust (verse 19).
ponder that.

oh, i'm a newbie, don't know if it's a done thing to answer like this, or desirable, so if this comment is not desirable, feel free to delete.

hmm, picking my own order, the first (4th) question is what are my thoughts on this, and so i give them. nothing chipped into stone here. just thoughts. 
 
the next (2nd) question. 
i for one consider Father to be omnipotent, as the Book says in many ways, and i say that because it hurts me when doubt is expressed regarding His omnipotence. having said that, let me stress that usually,  the doubt expressed is regarding the understanding of Him, or, like in this case Rhy, His plan. 
He made creation exactly perfect, according to His plan (not that i'm saying i know what that is, i just believe what He says), and He knows exactly where it's all leading to, the end result of the whole process. and so yes, He expected it to happen at exactly that time, and Yeshua's sacrifice was not a fixit plan, it was always an intrinsic part of the whole plan. 
 
the next (3rd) question. 
this touches on the whole predestination issue, which i consider an example of the mind dashing off the path into all kinds of swampy, pit-swallowing badlands. Father knows (knew before He made creation, from our point of view in time, He's outside of it) where each one of us is going to end up. that's the big picture, which doesn't tell us anything about ourselves. yet. 
we, not knowing where we are going to end up, are at the mercy of our free will, and it also pulls us, many times, off the path into swamps etc. the whole point for us to come to is to acknowledge that our exercising of our free will is not conducive to a good ending, and for us to FREELY choose to align our will with that of Father. 
to freely will to discard our free will, as it were. 
until such time as we've done that, we don't know where we'll end up. yet. 
(in fact, Father is even in control of our will,  but that is such a mind-bender that i'm not going to bring it into this discussion, except to acknowledge this to those who are aware of it. it's to do with the moving of hearts)  
 
the next (1st) question. 
Father told adam not to eat from the tree (Gen 2:17), eve wasn't there yet. eve heard from adam what Father said, read her reply to the serpent carefully (Gen 3:3), where did touching the tree come into it? 
also, this incident regards three persons, let's not forget that serpent. 
to sin is to miss, to go wrong. it can be seen as the failure to do right. let's bring Isaiah 7:16 into this 
'For before the boy knows enough to reject evil and choose good, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste.' 
now this is a (shadow) prophecy regarding Immanuel (Yeshua), and so the meaning in His case is different, see the previous verse, verse 15, but what is clear is that a child has to learn not to sin. 
in fact, the word sin is only introduced in the next chapter of Genesis, with regard to cain (Gen 4:7). 
and so yes, adam and eve had yet to learn not to sin, being infants in their adulthood, as it were. 
now, this question is actually two questions, actually four. 
i'm sorry, i do dissect heavily, don't i? but if you've read this far i'm assuming you will continue. 
did eve willingly sin, did eve knowingly sin, did adam willingly sin, did adam knowingly sin. 
now, they both willingly did what they did. 
but eve heard from adam that God said she'd die if she ate, and then heard from the serpent that she wouldn't, and he portrayed it as a desirable action. so her problem was she believed the wrong person, she believed the serpent, not adam. but i can't say she did this knowingly, this smacks of ignorance. 
adam, on the other hand, knew first hand that he should not do this. 
he knowingly failed to do right. even worse, he made no attempt to dissuade eve, as he was with her at the time(Gen 3:6). 
but, like the children they were, they were not yet fully aware of the consequences of their sin. that quickly became clear. 
now there is much more to what God informed them those consequences were than meets the eye, but i'll wrap this up only with this observation; 
the serpent himself was cursed (all Gen ch 3, verse 14) 
eve was (only) allocated pain (verse 16) 
adam had the ground cursed for his sake (verse 17) 
and he was doomed to return to the dust (verse 19). 
ponder that. 
 
oh, i'm a newbie, don't know if it's a done thing to answer like this, or desirable, so if this comment is not desirable, feel free to delete.