The Torah Network

Universal or national God?

11 w

Questioning a core belief might be a sensitive subject for some, so only read on if you are open to discussion:
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My thinking on Deut 32:8-9 has brought up another separate question which I hope someone can help with.

In Genesis 1 and 2 we see that Elyon (El) created the heavens and earth. We see a distinction between El and YHWH at least up to Deut 32:8-9 as it states that El divided the nations between His sons and YHWH's portion was Jacob. Those verses would make little sense if El kept a portion for Himself as one can't inherit from oneself as it would make El a son of El according to the second half of the passage. 🤔

If I read these verses for what it says then El is the Most High and YHWH one of His sons.

Another example is that Melchizedek was the high priest of El (Genesis 14:18–20) and not of YHWH. (We have to read into this passage to say that El is a title and therefore this is referring to YHWH.)

In my understanding there is at least up to Deut 32 still a distinction made between El and YHWH. Then over time we see El becoming a title (Host High) and YHWH becoming the name of who the Bible says is the Most High.

YHWH therefore is recognized as the national god of Israel and is very often referred to as the 'god of Israel' and then over time becomes the universal god as El is written out of the picture and YHWH "owns" the deeds of El.

Subsequently, all Bible believers currently accept YHWH as the creator of the heavens and earth and then try to make sense of what Deut 32 says in light of this belief.

I can't figure out at what point in time and Scripture is there a definitive "merger" of El and YHWH as it looks more like a subtle change that goes unnoticed as in modern translations the languages hide this distinction by just saying Lord or something similar.

Do you maybe know when this change over takes place or am I totally missing something here from a biblical perspective?

#elyon #yhwh #sonsofgod

Comment

Universal or national God?
Questioning a core belief might be a sensitive subject for some, so only read on if you are open to discussion:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i start my comment as you did rhy, because of sensitivity.
here goes.

firstly, just a little difference of opinion.
when i read deut 32:8-9 i don't necessarily see that YHWH is considered a son of God (El), or one of His sons.
john 1 pretty clearly identifies the Word of God, and His role in creation, which role exodus 20:11 clearly states was what YHWH did, and so the scriptures are saying YHWH is the Word of God.
not the Son of God.

see, it's only when the Word that is YHWH manifests in the flesh of Yeshua (at His baptism by john in the jordan), the only human begotten of the Father, through His Holy Spirit, that He becomes de facto the Son of God.
so YHWH was with El from before creation, the Word of the Father was with the Father, the Word WAS the Father, then came creation, and the long journey of creation to the point where Yeshua first came into the world.
when YHWH manifested in Yeshua, He took on human form.

for the purposes of clarity therefore, YHWH was with the Father from the beginning, Yeshua wasn't.
but when YHWH manifested in Yeshua, and took on human form to become our Messiah, He now lives on as Yeshua, the first risen from the dead.

i'll bring my comment to answer your question more directly rhy, but first i'd like to show that passage from philippians 2 with this understanding in mind.
it's pretty astonishing.
(the 'Who' is the Word, YHWH therefore)

6Who, existing in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God
something to be grasped,
7but emptied Himself,
taking the form of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
He humbled Himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross.
9Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place
and gave Him the name above all names,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

every tongue confess that YHWH manifested in the flesh is Adonia, to the glory of the Father El.
one performs the knee-bow of obedience to one's Lord and Master, or King.
one proscribes glory to the object of one's worship, the Father.
(btw - what's happening now is that not only YHWH's inheritance bows to Him, everybody bows)

let me show you ezekiel 16,

62So I will establish My covenant with you, and you will know that I am the LORD,
63so that when I make atonement for all you have done, you will remember and be ashamed and never again open your mouth because of your disgrace, declares the Lord GOD.”

Lord GOD being YHWH Adonai. and He says when HE makes atonement for His bride.

now, ezekiel 16, the story of daughter jerusalem, indicates what's going on with the morphing of the object of our worship, which ends with our understanding that that is to only be the Father.
i'm expressing this in our human terms, so at best this is an approximation of what really is.

scripture indeed starts off with distinguishing between the Father and the Word, in the Torah of deut 32.
but the newborn daughter needed to be raised first, and so YHWH took on the role of Father to her, and gave the Law.
and then, once she had grown to maturity, was she ready for Him to become her Husband.
there was a hiccup on that road.

now during the stage that she was growing up, for her to worship the Word as the Father was a moot point, for the Word was in the Father and WAS the Father, remember?
and so this merging of concept came about, and in 'ignorance' YHWH was considered to be the Father.
this ignorance was the partial veiling that the israelites were subjected to, for our sakes.
one always does well to remember that the wisdom of the rabbis can only ever be a partial one, because of this.

because the hiccup occurred.
and then, when Yeshua came, and YHWH mainfested in Him, YHWH could atone for His bride revealing Himself as her Husband, and clarify the distinction between Himself and the Father.
now the amazing thing is, that even though the understanding has changed through time, neatly tucked in in all kinds of places lies this 'hidden' knowledge, hidden only because of not being understood.

and everything being brought about, i'm referring to scripture taking shape now, which is what we have to go on, by fallible human clay pots of vessels.
copied who knows how accurately across the millenia, through the influences of different civilisations, resisting the machinations of men all the while.
only for us to see this now.
Who's really in charge? i bow in awe, and praise to the rooftops.

Universal or national God? 
Questioning a core belief might be a sensitive subject for some, so only read on if you are open to discussion: 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
i start my comment as you did rhy, because of sensitivity. 
here goes. 
 
firstly, just a little difference of opinion. 
when i read deut 32:8-9 i don't necessarily see that YHWH is considered a son of God (El), or one of His sons. 
john 1 pretty clearly identifies the Word of God, and His role in creation, which role exodus 20:11 clearly states was what YHWH did, and so the scriptures are saying YHWH is the Word of God. 
not the Son of God. 
 
see, it's only when the Word that is YHWH manifests in the flesh of Yeshua (at His baptism by john in the jordan), the only human begotten of the Father, through His Holy Spirit, that He becomes de facto the Son of God.  
so YHWH was with El from before creation, the Word of the Father was with the Father, the Word WAS the Father, then came creation, and the long journey of creation to the point where Yeshua first came into the world. 
when YHWH manifested in Yeshua, He took on human form. 
 
for the purposes of clarity therefore, YHWH was with the Father from the beginning, Yeshua wasn't. 
but when YHWH manifested in Yeshua, and took on human form to become our Messiah, He now lives on as Yeshua, the first risen from the dead. 
 
i'll bring my comment to answer your question more directly rhy, but first i'd like to show that passage from philippians 2 with this understanding in mind. 
it's pretty astonishing. 
(the 'Who' is the Word, YHWH therefore) 
 
6Who, existing in the form of God, 
did not consider equality with God 
something to be grasped, 
7but emptied Himself, 
taking the form of a servant, 
being made in human likeness. 
8And being found in appearance as a man, 
He humbled Himself 
and became obedient to death— 
even death on a cross. 
9Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place 
and gave Him the name above all names, 
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, 
in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, 
to the glory of God the Father. 
 
every tongue confess that YHWH manifested in the flesh is Adonia, to the glory of the Father El. 
one performs the knee-bow of obedience to one's Lord and Master, or King. 
one proscribes glory to the object of one's worship, the Father. 
(btw - what's happening now is that not only YHWH's inheritance bows to Him, everybody bows) 
 
let me show you ezekiel 16, 
 
62So I will establish My covenant with you, and you will know that I am the LORD,  
63so that when I make atonement for all you have done, you will remember and be ashamed and never again open your mouth because of your disgrace, declares the Lord GOD.” 
 
Lord GOD being YHWH Adonai. and He says when HE makes atonement for His bride. 
 
now, ezekiel 16, the story of daughter jerusalem, indicates what's going on with the morphing of the object of our worship, which ends with our understanding that that is to only be the Father. 
i'm expressing this in our human terms, so at best this is an approximation of what really is. 
 
scripture indeed starts off with distinguishing between the Father and the Word, in the Torah of deut 32. 
but the newborn daughter needed to be raised first, and so YHWH took on the role of Father to her, and gave the Law. 
and then, once she had grown to maturity, was she ready for Him to become her Husband. 
there was a hiccup on that road. 
 
now during the stage that she was growing up, for her to worship the Word as the Father was a moot point, for the Word was in the Father and WAS the Father, remember? 
and so this merging of concept came about, and in 'ignorance' YHWH was considered to be the Father. 
this ignorance was the partial veiling that the israelites were subjected to, for our sakes. 
one always does well to remember that the wisdom of the rabbis can only ever be a partial one, because of this. 
 
because the hiccup occurred. 
and then, when Yeshua came, and YHWH mainfested in Him, YHWH could atone for His bride revealing Himself as her Husband, and clarify the distinction between Himself and the Father. 
now the amazing thing is, that even though the understanding has changed through time, neatly tucked in in all kinds of places lies this 'hidden' knowledge, hidden only because of not being understood. 
 
and everything being brought about, i'm referring to scripture taking shape now, which is what we have to go on, by fallible human clay pots of vessels. 
copied who knows how accurately across the millenia, through the influences of different civilisations, resisting the machinations of men all the while. 
only for us to see this now. 
Who's really in charge? i bow in awe, and praise to the rooftops.

· Reply · 1755682787

3 Replies

My 2 cents: This premise is trying to split hairs that aren’t there.

El is a title for YHWH. YHWH translated would be “He exists”. Which goes back to all the references of YHWH about Him being “is, was, and will be”. There are times when we didn’t or won’t exist (before birth, between death and resurrection), but He exists. There is no beginning or ending to that.

If El was a different entity that created YHWH or was superior to YHWH in some fashion, wouldn’t the same description of “He exists” be just as true? Then wouldn’t that description NOT be true of YHWH? This then creates a paradox for what is actually true in Scripture.